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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
610
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Posted - 2014.07.29 14:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.
These changes do nothing to affect the issue with the Ishtar (it has battleship-level DPS weapons that can hit nearly anything with virtually no downside). You would have been better off not doing anything to the ishtar than essentially redoing the paint because at least doing nothing wouldn't be quite as insulting. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
613
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone classes. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. Sentry drones have no downsides compared to the significant downsides of light/medium/heavy drones. It is sentry drones, which are not smartbombable by the target and apply damage instantly, that are the problem because they are essentially an odd gun type and not a drone. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
613
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Basically everything that makes drones an interesting weapon that has upsides and downsides gets thrown out with sentries. With other drones you have chase time and your tradeoff is you're risking your dps being smartbombed off while it approaches. If you stay out of tackle range you apply dps less effectively, if you're within tackle range you can be tackled. Sentry drones...well, you have to go pick them back up once you're done. And it is theoretically possible someone might shoot it by mistake. Those disadvantages are miniscule compared to the downsides of the real drones.
Sentry ishtars that are forced off their sentry drones just go home, they don't die or anything interesting. You can't say "drones" in a balance discussion and discuss them like h/m/l drones and sentry drones have anything similar besides that they are used on drone ships. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
614
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.
they can be killed, in theory, but not in practice like other drones which clump up around your target and this is trivially countered by the ishtar blob spreading out a bit so aoe weapons hit them poorly
they don't return to your ship, which is all but irrelevant in most situations
these are not meaningful downsides and it is absurd that you would call them enormous especially in comparison to moving drones |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
616
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Mizhir wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along. But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside. Which makes you completely vulnerable to frigate wings if you are pushed out of the sentry range. if only sentry range wasn't enormous |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
616
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Taleden wrote:Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range. i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
616
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range. Happy now? i am less than inclined to take your word for it when you obviously take into account so little in these comparisons that you cited your ratting fit
many people have already pointed out the scads of things you overlooked and i think we can essentially declare your point completely disproven and move onto the next |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
619
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Posted - 2014.07.29 18:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:Budan Kado wrote:CFC if you cant beat them, nerf them.
Devs I hope you skip over the CFC posting brigade of nerfing. Its sorta personal for them. They cant figure out how to beat them, so they will try to get them nerfed. This isnt a new case, it has happened before with ships.
Its a shame really, they have the biggest collection of players in Nullsec and when they cant out blob something, they run and cry about it to get it nerfed. Do you mean the same fleet doctrines most of the alliances in the CFC currently use? Just because it is not a CFC doctrine does not mean it is not being used by the CFC. Or is the the standard Grr Goons reply when you cant defend something that is clearly broken and most sides agree on this statement. why are you replying to an npc alt |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
624
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Posted - 2014.07.29 23:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:mynnna wrote: As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.
>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods >Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role >Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that >Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that. Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most. You guessed right. Your coalition. holy lawl did this guy just say goons don't complain about slowcats |
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